Emerging Women

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Everything Must Change
Brian McLaren Tour 2008

Upcoming Emergent Events
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Discussion is underway regarding future Emerging Women gatherings. We will keep you posted.

Weekly Round-up Animal, Vegetable, Miracle - Week 1 - Have you ever considered where your food comes from or done the research to find out?
Not until reading the book. Now I think about it a lot and pay much closer attention to it.

- Is eating healthy, ethically, and humanely a priority for you as a Christian?
Its definitely a growing one. I have begun locating the local farmer's markets near me. I just did a blog post about a local free range farm I found. And we are planting a small garden so my son can begin learning more about food

- What do you know about sustainability and eating locally?
Not much I'm afraid. I'm learning as I go now. :)

~Janice I grew up on a small farm, so about 50 percent of our food was grown by us, including our meat (chickens, lamb, and beef ... we traded for pork).

So ... I often consider where my food comes from and know that it comes from too far away, grown in conditions that are unsavory at best.

I'm stepping towards a more sustainable diet ... one that is better for my family and for the farmers that grow it and the animals at it's base. It's really enlightening to learn about the history of how food is distrbuted and "produced" in many areas of the world nowadays - from the canning and preservative industries that sprung up in response to world wars, to the skyrocketing prices of basic staples because now reality is sinking in that we're coming close to the breaking point of outeating our ability to grow them. Also, meat in general is a pretty inefficient way to obtain key nutrients - you have to feed so much grain/vegetable matter or dedicate large areas of land for grazing so animals can spend x amount of time growing before being slaughtered. It would be much more efficient to eat the grains and vegetables themselves and conserve the land. I haven't read the book yet, but I am getting closer to the top of the library's waiting list! :)

Yes, eating healthily and ethically is important to me. I've been buying more and more organic food, and I'm also trying to use locally-grown produce when possible.

Sometimes, I have a choice between buying a product (or a certain type of produce) that is organic or one that is grown locally. In those cases, I'm torn. Should I support the people who produce food here in Ontario, or should I buy food from another province or country that is organic? Sonja, I didn't grow up on a farm, but my parents did have a garden for most of my childhood. And a good percentage of our meat came from either the deer my Dad hunted or as gifts from family members who had recently slaughtered a cow or two. I feel like I've been growing towards the principles expressed in this book my whole life.

When I was little we ate like most other Southern, American families. When I got a little older my mom got Chronic Fatigue and began to look at nutrition as a way to feel better.

That started us on a process of healthy eating including buying in bulk from a coop, sharing cows purchased from local farms with family friends, and lots of fresh fruit and vegetable juice combined with numerous supplements. My mom is now a vegetarian.

I haven't known about seasonal/local eating for very long. And most of the information in this book is new. But it feels so right. I actually feel at home when I read it, as if all of my pioneer, farming ancestors are rising up and saying, "yes!"

That combined with the egological/environmental issues makes me wonder why we're only learning about this now. And now I really want a garden! Lydia - I know the local vs. organic thing is a question many people have. I think the point is not to be legalistic in these things, but to support what one can. Often by buying locally, one can get to know the farmers and know what their farming practices are. Often they may be basically organic just without the benefit of the costly certification. Similarly something can be labeled organic and still not be ethical. So the more one can get to know the source of one's food (i.e. buy local and get to know your farmer) the better. we switched to a whole foods, organic diet back in January. We're not super-strict about it, but wow, wow, wow, can we feel the difference! others also rave about how different we look in such terms as "glowing" "radiant" and "fit." (it helps that we work out)

now when I succumb to the old temptation of sugar-laden highly processed foods, my body tells me by feeling awful, and I realize, holy cow, I used to feel this way all the time.

side note: our granddaughter was in and out of the hospital emergency room with asthma until her mother put the entire family on a whole foods, organic diet. That convinced us to do it, too.

Not sure about the "humanely" aspect: We do it out of an increasing regard for our own, personal future. It's an investment in our own future, and yours, too, because the healthier we are as old people, the less burden we are to our family and society.

In terms of "humane" we focus on buying local products or products available through local small-business vendors, from coffee to bath soap to cars. Armageddon outta here Hi Amie,

I agree with a lot of what you wrote...especially the part about which person God is with (winners or losers). But at the same time, while I can agree people make mistakes and love can make that "mistake" obsolete. Somehow that doesn't seem to cover the need for remorse and even possibly restitution. I don't think I have a good answer for any of it right now. I don't believe anymore that we're all "sentenced to hell" unless we've said the magic words, but I also don't think it's as simple as "if we all just loved each other". Somehow it always feels like we're missing something big. I do like most of N.T. Wright's take on evil (his book Evil and the Justice of God was pretty good) and he refers to some stuff that I haven't read yet (like Miroslav Volf) that I've got on my list. One thing that he mentioned is that no matter how hard we try, the world is not getting to be a better place (less evil things in the world) and it's difficult to make a case that at some point we'll all just sort-of be able to put all the evil aside. I think there will be an end to things, but I think it'll need more of God's intervention besides just what Jesus did in the past. I don't really see it as Armageddon anymore though or any sort of war. Maybe we should look at it more as a final peace.

Definitely a good conversation...I don't find anyone in person interested in discussing these sorts of things.

Cristi :] Christi,

Why do you think that love means the absence of remorse or restitution?

I agree with you that it isn't as simple as "if we all just loved each other". I understand the story of Israel under the Mosaic Law to tell that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. We had a dire need for a Savior.

I think if good/evil were put aside and we focused on relationships with one another without that distraction, peace would be advanced. I think though, that the world has been getting better. I can remember just from when I was little and there were piles of trash on the sides of the roads, waste being dumped into rivers and the Berlin Wall (lol). Seriously, comparatively to the past, we're progressing.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Seeing "Armageddon" outside of the box gives me lots to ponder :-).

Amie Hi Amie,

>> Why do you think that love means the absence of remorse or restitution?
Maybe it's just my impression of stuff. I know I'm not very good at making boundaries and everytime I do it seems that someone is upset with me and acts like somehow I don't love them for making that boundary. I'm just not sure how you love someone and still reconcile with them when they hurt you if they do not have any remorse.

>>I think if good/evil were put aside and we focused on relationships with one another without that distraction, peace would be advanced.
I totally agree...although I think it has to be two sided. I think that's part of what Jesus was trying to teach. In reality, most "evil" seems to be someone not caring/thinking about someone else in what they do (lying, manipulation, murder, etc).

I guess I'm just not sure how all this works when the large majority of people really don't seem to be thinking about it.

I agree that there have been lots of advancements in the world, but it just seems to me like every advancement includes a pretty big step backwards as well. (Interestingly enough, today the paper in my town had an article about people throwing beer bottles out their car window and dumping trash on the highway.) For all of our good medical care, we have hugely high cancer rates (and other diseases and infant mortality rates compared with other countries). We may be look out for more organic/local food and fair trade clothing, but most people buy more clothes and food than anytime in the past (consumerism/materialism and all that). Even if we try to get away from coal and oil for our power, there are still drawbacks to wind and other "green" energy. It just seems to me that we're just replacing one thing with another.

Like I said before, I'm really excited to discuss stuff like this...most people that I run into are not at all interested even in the possibilities and/or imagining outside the box.

Cristi :] Women in Emergent thanks julie for passing it on. i posted a comment over there... Julie, what a great little article! I see a gap widening between the Emergent thread and the rest of the emerging church. For me, Emergent represents the folks trying to organize us to death--and they seem to be the extremely sexist/exclusionary.

We lose so many good women (I almost count myself in that number) because of men like that. But I guess we need to stick with it! Nothing will change for the generations to come if I (insert your name) quit now. Thanks for passing this on Julie ... I've been pondering this for a few days now. Here's my take on this and it's a little harsh.

But I'm tired. Exhausted really. I'm fed up with the excuses and the words. So here's my pithy response to the men ...

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Get out of the way. Just a little word of hope...

In my little corner of the world, a very traditional, midwestern corner at that, I've been invited into an Emergent community that has been hospitable to me in every way imaginable. I know that it changes the dynamic for this particular group to have a woman present, and I know it's taken change for them to make space, but they've chosen to do so. I know that they, like I, are saddened that for now, I am often the only woman who attends their gatherings & engages their thinking and conversations. And I know that there will undoubtedly be bumps along the way, as we iron out how we work together. But I wanted to honor these emergent white males who have chosen to make space for me, a woman, with no titles or credentials (or even a blog, for heaven's sake!). Embedded within this new emerging approach to faith is enormous potential for openness to "the other", and I am grateful to find myself in a community that is doing its best to flesh that out. How to Choke a Camel this is great! Weekly Round-up Zimbabwe I'm praying. Lily Ledbetter (not bedwetter) Fair Pay Act I'm fascinated by how the main objection to this is "it will hinder business by causing too many lawsuits." While the main support is "it's about being fair." One group has business and profit as their central focus and the other has people. Just called my senator to throw my support behind it. As a woman who's been in the career workforce for going on 20 years, I'm all for equal pay for equal work. Thanks SW, I am glad to hear you called. By the way, what do you do in the working world, and how do you feel you've been treated as a professional/woman? Have you felt equally treated, both financially and personally?

Julie -- yeah. So how did the vote turn out?

And how else can we get behind this?

I have a daughter...I want it fixed! From www.newser.com:

"Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama interrupted their rival campaigns yesterday to vote together on a bill that would make it easier for women to sue employers for pay discrimination. But their moment of unity proved fruitless as Senate Republicans blocked the bill, likely killing it for the rest of the year, reports Reuters." Bah. that just means working harder next year. Hi Jemila,
I currently work in sales/management in the hospitality Industry.
Have I been treated fairly, personally and financially?

Hmmm... In my entire career, I've only had a couple of truly wretched bosses and like most bullies, they picked on someone with less power than they had. It was early in my career when this happened.

Financially, I don't know if I've ever been paid less because I'm a woman. If it happened, I never knew. There was a company with a huge bias against working moms and I saw that culture early on in the interview process and withdrew my application. My bill rate is as high or higher than the men I know.
Over the last several years, I feel I am treated very fairly regarding race and gender. In fact, it's an interesting dynamic to describe. I've experienced a lot of healing and growth in my personal life and it's affected me professionally in ways that surprised me.

The more confident I feel personally as a woman, and professionally with a senior level of experience and expertise, I find men coworkers and clients are very comfortable around a womanly woman and the men are also not intimidated by my professional expertise. I am treated with more deference and kindness and respect from male coworkers and clients now then ever before. Part of this is being married to a man and raising a young man has given me a high level of comfort and familiarity with the male POV. I was surprised to find that in the last 5-10 years, I've experienced much more hidden agenda professional sabotage and undermining from women coworkers and clients. In fact, I cannot think of any male coworkers that have mistreated me in the last 5 years. My experience has been that a beautiful smart capable career woman can be perceived as a threat by some women. SW -- thank for sharing, it wonderful to have your perspective. I admire you for your confidence is yourself as a woman and as a professional!

I would concur that my personal experience has been that I have felt more undermined by women than men, overall. This is been true in terms of women who do not want other women in leadership over men, as well as outside church contexts.

I also have to admit that at times I have been the one has has felt threatened or in some way jealous of a beautiful, successful woman. I think part of this because we have often been betrayed by men, subtly or blatantly who wanted the *other* woman, often at work who was confident and sexy. It can feel good to feel the high that comes from mild opposite-sex tension/affirmation when you are the confident, sexy woman, but not if you are the one left behind at home or if you are the one who is wondering if she's still "all that." Perhaps a topic for another post is, "How can we get over our fear and cattiness and really be loving sisters? Jemila,
I love your heart.
You have such a generosity of spirit to admit you have at times felt jealous or threatened of a beautiful successful woman. And you are right, the question to ask is how can we get over our cattiness and really be loving sisters.

This is a topic so very close to my heart. I never dreamed that I'd get to be the beautiful smart confident woman. And the cattiness and how that wound of feeling left behind plays out in our behavior.

A very wise generous-hearted woman named Leigh Barkalow helped me with this issue. To understand the wounds and how to let Jesus heal them. She gave a talk on Fallen Eve and the different ways Fallen Eve acts out in behavior. The CD is 60 minutes long and it took me more than a week to listen to it because I kept having to stop and repent. It will take me some time, but I can go back and listen and get the 5 main bullet points and then share how my heart responded to that when I listened 3 or 4 years ago. I'll write an article and post it in the next few days. I'd really like it if you and I can work together on a discussion on that article The Cattiness of Fallen Eve—We've All Been There. I'd love to continue the conversation. I think there's a lot of healing in it for both of us. For all of us.
Love,
SW

PS this conversation and the way you shared your heart are really important to me. Women's Ministry - What is it Good For? you are asking the wrong question.. the right question is "why not"?

if created equal with equal possibilities i see no good reason why any woman should be left out of posistions of leadership and ministry because of her sex.

men have argued with tradition and sometimes even with medieval anthropologic world views about women´s lacking abilities in handling sacraments.

some essentialists say women always act out of emotional impulses and cannot be relied on, while others think of this as a woman´s particular strenght.

i don´t agree with any of these arguments. being a young female theology student, i cannot, with any possible reasoning reach the conclution why my sex should keep me from doing a job i know i can do - i´m getting the proper education to work as a minister, just as my male companions do, i have ritual and liturgical experience - even more than some of my fellow male students have, etc etc

i understand this may be a bit "on the side" of your blog post´s intention, but my instinctive reaction caused me to get my tapping fingers working and send this sighing message from a theological faculty far far away (norway) I am assuming that you are referring to events such as Extraordinary Women events. If so, I have also been a bit leery. They seemed somehow shallow or "rah-rah" to me. However, I was given tickets to such an event by a family member and decided that since I like the musicians and one comedian in the line-up I would go.

Some of it was just like I expected.

Other parts touched me in places in the heart I haven't been touched in a long time. One speaker was a single mom of 4 with a theology degree from a seminary. True, she still runs more on the conservative side than I do, but I thought she was fantastic. See, I'm a single mom of 3 with a seminary degree. In listening to her speak, all I could think was, "She knows! She understands! I'm not the only one!"

If there is a strength in such programs, perhaps this is it: hearing your story out loud and being affirmed in your own triumphs and encouraged in your own struggles.

I'm still not completely sold, but I am encouraged by my experience that weekend. I will answer as an assistant pastor and a women's ministry coordinator in my church. In theory and idealism, I am against women's ministries. In practice, I am for them. For now.

Let me explain: Ideally, I envision Christ's body as a community of believers in which intimacies could be shared regardless of differences in sex (or race, or age, etc, for that matter). However, it's my observation that we're not "there" yet. There are women in our church who would never in a million years feel comfortable talking about certain intimate details or confessing particular sins to a group that included a male. Nor do I know many men who feel comfy talking about issues of pornography in female company. Those are extreme topics that aren't easily discussed between genders when the application is personal (i.e. "I struggle with this), but I think there are probably plenty of other issues that complicate gender relationships, too.

In theory, I long to see a church where the sexes are so reconciled to one another that new believers have plenty of healthy, nonsexual male-female relationship models to build upon for doing ministry together, for praying with one another, for confessing sin one to another.
For now, we just dont' have that (We, as in, we here in my part of Iowa City, IA). That's where women's ministry comes in. Womens' ministry events or women's gatherings that are meant to be more than just a social, how-ya-doing/can-I-have-your-muffin-recipe get-together, often have a way of helping take down the guards that people put up in mixed-gender settings. They have the potential of creating places of safety for women who, let's face it, have been hurt by men, or have simply learned to be distrustful of men. (Now, it doesn't work so well when women are distrustful of women, but that's another issue). So, when the guards are down and people are more comfortable, it's easier to build relationships, easier to confess struggles, easier to make personal statements. Still, there have been many women's ministry events I've hated attending. Many times I've felt excluded from somethign more interesting/important (the men's stuff)so that I could sit and learn how to make crafts. That is not the sort of women's ministry I aspire to, but one that encourages spiritual growth and community. I think there is a difference between a women's getaway that's all about female bonding, laughing, letting loose and sharing the journey, and a women's "ministry" that assumes what women need theologically is different than what men need. I am for the former; I'll take a pass on the latter. I have a repulsion with the words "women's ministry"...the words are so impregnated with stereotypes and baggage that make me want to vomit. However I revel in a good community of women, connecting, being real, and dropping all the stereotypical baggage that is imposed on us. I love being in the company of women that let their intellect shine and their fight be revealed. Who choose to define themselves based on who they are to God and to themselves and not some contrived and imposed definition based on shoulds and social mores. I choose not to throw out the substance I want with the labels I reject. So I will gather with women in authentic community but reject the traditional baggage of women's ministry. I too am energized by authentic and deep connection with other women. It is certainly possible to experience such a thing at a women's retreat but it depends on the mindset of those organizing and attending such an event. Like most of you, I have mainly felt like a fish out of water at "traditional" women's events (you can add baby and bridal showers to the list).

A dear friend of mine and I started a small women's group several years ago that meets every other week. The goal of the group is to get real with one another and develop deep relationship with one another, supporting eachother in our spiritual, social, physical and emotional being. In a sense, a "growth group" using relationship as the vehicle for change. We have added some women and lost some. Unfortunately, you will find in this sort of microcosm the same junk that you do on the macro (faith community) level...differences of opinion can be the source of division, distress and ultimately disconnection. Few people have the stomach (let alone understand how ultimately unavoidable it is) to get in the mud and stay there with one another and work things through. The forced and limited environment of a retreat is not the most conducive for this sort of process but can certainly give a taste or sow the seeds for it. We found that just getting real (dropping the facade) with one another took some time (think years rather than months).

Anyway, the group has been a powerful experience on a number of levels and each of us who remain have found it to be life-changing. We have seen one another through such struggles as marital separation, health crises, deaths of loved ones, alcohol and drug concerns in family members, new marriages, empty nest, marital struggles, church family struggles, family conflicts, career development concerns, spiritual crises, and the list goes on and on. There is no formal study format to the group but there have been times we have read materials together, watched tapes like NOOMA, listened to music or recordings of a sermon and discussed them. We have avoided structuring the group in any of the traditional ways (no "leader", democratic versus autocratic style of operation). Believe me, this was a struggle for some, especially at the beginning. For those of us able to keep with it, it has been a blessing and if you have a desire in your heart for such a group...well, go start one up! As a warning though, the group came to be perceived by the faith community that this group grew out of as kind of a rebellious and subversive sort of thing. We declined to be a formal "small group" and go through the process that was eventually established for such groups. We read and discussed a book ("Captivating") that was seen by that community as spreading feminist (gasp!) ideology and was discouraged by that community as small group material. I was literally told by a church leader that they had "concerns" about the group. So beware that being involved in or starting up such a group could get you into trouble. ; ) And if you are attracted to such "trouble"...you will not be disappointed. Julie I am so glad that you posted that question, the responses are so very helpful just in seeing that other women out there feel like I feel.

I founded a website that largely is about making resources available and making use of them as an example (not as the one and only answer). I think that is one way in which the truth of God already including us is discovered - which makes a women's website obsolete (I so relate to Heather).

I also agree that all of the connotations that go along with the title "women's ministry" can be repulsive. I'm not interested in striving to be June Cleaver, or in encouraging that because that's just a denial and therefore neglect of reality. There are very real things that we could be focusing on.

I don't think that women need anything differently theologically either -- other than maybe meeting those needs for ourselves.

I was let go by a group because they weren't going in a women's ministry direction - why would they see my position that way? Because I am a woman? Why was I not seen as a fellow leader? I admittedly did see myself as a director over a women's ministry - but thought it was understood that my intent was to lead us to unity and so there really was no women's group kind of thing. I felt so relegated and am still healing.

At the same time, it's almost ironic because the focus of my site is toward women (though not women-only). So am I relegating myself? And what if I didn't? Is there a need? I don't know and am feeling confused lately.

A guy that I know recommended to me recently this book on what women are contributing to leadership - and who they are. On one hand, I see that it would be useful to bring out in the open, maybe in that they are setting an example - we CAN and DO contribute in all areas. On the other hand, I felt a tinge of mistrust and questioned why HE would send me a book pertaining to only women. It just seemed so patronizing. I know that he appreciates and loves women, but I also know that is objectively. My involvement in "women's ministries" through the years has varied - more involvement at times, less at others.

While my DH was in seminary, there was a group of women - mostly wives of seminary students - who met together and were mentored by one of the faculty wives. This was so valuable for me at that time. My DH was preparing to enter a new world of ministry and I needed to be prepared as well. I would say, however, that the mentoring was informal and our focus was on gathering, learning from each other and building each other up.

When my children were young, I was very involved in "women's Bible studies". The fellowship as well as the time in studies was great. The studies were not "women" centered, but dealt with real spiritual issues. Plus, it was a chance to be doing the fellowship thing with ADULTS.

Now, it's harder to get out (I have fibro and poor evening vision for driving along with fatigue), but I have still enjoyed the times of fellowship and study. (The last study I was in, interestingly enough, was on 10 Lies the Church Tells Women - or something close to that - along with several articles.)

What is the benefit of women's ministries? It may depend on your time of life or interests. But it is a chance to get together, to have fellowship, for younger women to learn from older women (hey! that's scriptural!), to just share with other women, to pray with other women.

It doesn't replace corporate worship. It doesn't replace family time. It doesn't replace male/female interaction.

Each has it's own place. It's own purpose. We connect with each other in very different ways in the various forms of meeting. I'm going to comment right off the bat before reading everyone's comments because I want to offer a fresh candid response.

Good grief!
Why not?
*Because we need time to talk girl talk in a spiritual context.

*Because nothing so refreshing to my soul than hanging out with some women who love Jesus and love me.

*Because it's a lovely step toward building intentional community.

*Because no one else can comfort, console and mentor me like another woman

*When a church dedicates part of their budget to hire a woman minister to be on staff full time to minister to and care for the hearts of women in the congregation, that makes me feel valued and loved. Also, it's likely that women will love and nurture each other regardless of staff status but isn't it respectful and venerating to say to a woman "here you are and we love your heart and all you have to offer to other women. We know you'd do it anyway, but here's a salary so you can free up your time that could be spent making money somewhere else so you can have those hours free to love, care for, pray with, and generally minister to the women in our community."

That's all I can think of right now.

Oh, I did remember something else. There's something that feels deeply right with the world when I realize that there are several women on my church's staff and they are not all assigned to women's ministry. They offer ministry to all aspects of the body of believers. So it's not like if you're a woman and you want to minister you can ONLY serve the women population.

I love my man friends. They are my brothers and they fill a special place in my heart. But they cannot minister to and touch my heart the way the love of a sister can. Women are uniquely powerful and precious. I have been a participant in several WM groups in my lifetime. They were all different. Since most, but not all, of my experiences were good ones, I don't have an aversion to the terminology yet. WM groups can offer something a mixed sex group cannot - the ability to be transparent and talk without having to explain yourself. Equal but different.

On the positive side, WM groups have made it possible for me to connect with inspiring and loving women one-on-one. Finding that person you can open up to is like finding a needle in a haystack, but worth the search. I'll never forget the night I stood for hours out in the parking lot after a Christmas Tea, talking with a woman whose husband had left her (I was also separated at the time) and she advised me to follow my desire to reconnect with my parents before it was too late. I took her advice and moved 2000 miles to do so, and 10 years later, I find my elderly parents to be my inspiration and comfort. No one can love you like mom and dad. I still remember her sincere and sweet spirit. I have several other encounters with women that have sustained me over miles and years.

On the negative side, I dislike the hype, programming, special speakers, self-esteem lectures, commercialization and so forth that can be the focus of WM. I am also uncomfortable with women who have been educated in all the "right" ways to
minister. I detest Christian book stores and radio stations that are geared to SELL stuff. Don't even mention "Christian" TV to me. I do love music and reading, but I think what we have now is so far from what God had in mind for us. I prefer small discussion, Bible study and prayer groups. We don't need to be told what the Bible says about women (it's plain to see) or how we should "feel" about ourselves as women. We don't need special Women's Bibles or CD's or whatever. All that stuff just distracts from the real thing - connecting with God and each other. WM is a term that can carry all kinds of baggage, stereotypes and misplaced expectations. My personal experience is that whatever else may constitute "women's ministries," the context can include both the most gracious as well as the most vicious elements of humanity. I've seen both sides - and have learned from both. As long as women face issues based on their womanhood, there will be a place for a woman focused ministry. I find such hope in other women who have 'been there, done that' and found solutions.
It frightens me however to be at churches that want to cover up gender issues by not having places for gender oriented discussions to happen. Men and women need places to talk about gender issues and to cross converse... Check out "Why I Don't Do Women's Ministries" by Amy Simpson of Gifted for Leadership here:

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/giftedforleadership/2007/08/why_i_dont_do_womens_ministry.html Cleaver & Conundrums: Why I Don't Do Women's Retreats how about a more filling version that starts with a question?

I like that approach.

In addition, I could be much more easily lured into a retreat if it was a little more outside the box. Rather than having a retreat for women (or men, people in age group X, married people, singles, etc), why not base retreats on specific interests or topics?

For example, I'd be very interested in a retreat that was focused on something related to social justice.

Others may be interested in, say, a retreat that is focused on hermeneutics (the science of interpreting the Bible the way that the people who wrote it may have interpreted it) or eschatology (theology or philosophy that is related to the end times). And still other people may, indeed, be interested in pastel colours and emotional highs.

There's nothing wrong with liking any (or all...or none :P) of these things. But it would be healthy for Christians to take a giant step back from this arranged marriage between gender, age, social background etc and what we assume people will be interested in. A-MEN! I don't just avoid women's retreats, I avoid women's ministries in general for those reasons.

I've lived almost all of my life as a single person, and I'm almost too old to have a kid now that I am finally married. I have a job. I have a brain I like using. I'm not into putting on public displays of emotion. I like spending time with Hubby. I fit in at women's retreats about as well as bacon at a kosher wedding.

I prefer the idea of retreats based on topics as well. Biblical languages, social justice, creation, Old Testament history, bring them on! Leave June Cleaver with the TV set. emotions reminds me of the next-to-last women's retreat I attended. The featured speaker (a woman whose name I won't reveal, but it rhymed with a popular brand of cheesebrick)used her words to rake open the barely closed wounds present in every audience: cancer, death of a child, divorce, etc. And, since intense emotion is contagious, in about 20 minutes most of the audience was engaged in full, shoulder-shaking sobs.

Sure, there was a point somewhere in all that, but I missed it, as I finally broke convention and left the room. My bet is that ripping open someone's wounds in order to create a public display of their sorrow is not quite what sharing is supposed to be about. You need to go to one of these retreats: http://www.soulation.org/
Specifically, the Ruby Slippers retreat. =) I know!!!

I haven't been to a womens retreat for years for precisely those reasons.

I was talked into going to a one-day womens conference a couple of months ago. I only went because they asked me to run a workshop. Honestly, by 10am I felt that I had been thoroughly convinced that I am woman, I am beautiful, I am loved, I should love myself. By 11 I was nauseated. By 4, the next person who gave me a pink heart-shaped chocolate, a pink bag with hearts on it, a pink cupcake, a pink candle, a pink floral mug or a gushing greeting was going to get a black eye. I felt like screaming at the top of my lungs "There is a world out there, people! What are you thinking???" Can we do a topic oriented retreat that doesn't have to be "female" and have a gender equal conversation? I'm not looking forward to going back to a "normal" church and getting back to the "oh, but you're a gurrrlll" attitudes. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I still see and have experienced the good and the God of ladies meeting together and being honest about who they are and who they'd like to be. The seminar/worship service style retreat was never my thing, but it must work for some people. I also dreaded women's retreats. Although our church called them women's advances. I still called them retreats if, for no other reason, to irritate the women's pastor who took it so super-seriously.

I was the worship leader at our church's ADVANCES and even at that I dreaded it each year.

augh

Michelle The seminar/worship service style retreat was never my thing, but it must work for some people.

Most definitely. I'm even related to some of those people. ;)

The problem is, there don't seem to be many alternatives for those of us for whom it doesn't work. Don't laugh but the best women's retreat I have ever attended was a silent retreat. They host it every year at an abbey, each woman has her own room and access to gardens, labrynth, and courtyard zen garden. The silence begins Friday night and is not lifted until noon on Sunday. It is a guided retreat, so there are times when all meet together and receive instructions and so forth. However, there is tons of solitude and you can choose to avoid the agtehrings if you wish. Meals are provided by the abbey and are healthy, tasty and plentiful. And silent. Not only are you not allowed to break the silence but you must walk slowly (this was actually more difficult for me than keeping quiet).

To be honest, I was concerned about a silent retreat going into it as I am a notorious talker. But I can not begin to describe how indulgent this retreat felt. I had no sense of deprivation at all and was sad when it was over. If you have never attended a silent retreat, I highly recommend it. I've never been to a woman's retreat, so your post gives me alot to think about! I'm thinking of going to Joyce Meyer's Women's conference in St.Louis though. I guess I won't know if they're all the same until I try a few out, huh?lol I don't know ... I honestly haven't been to many women's retreats (because I'm too young to have much experience? too poor? most recently involved in a church community that's not really into mainstream Christian retreats and events?), so I'm not weighing in from a standpoint of much personal experience. I will say, though, that I'm wary of being too down on women's retreats in general because
1) are they ALL so bad?
2) is a "retreat" really the place for getting all intellectual? Or, to put it differently, perhaps those of us who are fascinated by hermeneutics, for instance, should get together sometimes, and other times we should hang out with (and celebrate with!) the half of the population that shares our womanness (however we conceive of that womanness)?
3) maybe we should use our frustration to get up a conference that's not so sacchariney or manipulative, but maybe we should also be wary of always wanting things made over in our own image: isn't humble interaction with difference the start of everything good? Aren't women's retreats sort of like the embodiment of the women's ministry? I would love to see this framed in lieu of women's ministry period.

Like - what do you find on this blog that isn't found on a mixed gender blog? Should there be a "women's only" space at all, and what should it look like?

On one hand, I know for sure that there are things that I deal with that only other women would understand. The support from/of other women is unique in that regard.

On the other hand, when it becomes topical - leadership, parenting, etc - what's the difference?

Just thinking out loud - great post!

Amie Thought I would chime in on the good discussion.

Officially Emerging Women isn't women only. Men are more than welcome here. This is a place to focus on the thoughts, needs, and questions of women. most of the EW retreats have been open to men as well - as long as they come willing to learn from women and focus on the needs and viewpoints of women. It is a way for our voice to be encouraged in a world where it is often drowned out.

At our retreat I know we try to balance the intellectual with the emotional (we are wholistic people), but it is never right for everyone. We've had complaints that they are too girly, too theological, too heady, and too emotional. It is hard to please everyone which is why I think having a variety of options would be a good thing. Women are different and desire different things from ministries like these. Women's gathering can be what one wants to make of them - a cynical attitude or assuming one is one the outside/minority from the get go means one will most likely not get anything from a retreat like that. At the same retreat I've heard women complain - oh I'm the only ______ (young mom, senior, college student, single, ...). That was never the actual case, just previous stereotypes projected onto a group of strangers. Perhaps entering such environments with a willingness to serve and get to know others not exactly like ourselves could help heal the issues we as women have with each other.

As for having retreats at all - I do struggle with that since I hate the typical women's ministry thing/retreat. I do see that coming together as women is safe for many women and the only way they can get away from the demands of everyday life. Women who can't travel with the family to the major conferences can get away for a local weekend just for women. I think women deserve to be a part of this whole emerging conversation, so providing whatever resources to help make that happen is valuable in my eyes.

That said there will eventually be more EW retreats. The NW group had one recently, and I hope to jump back into helping plan and coordinate a couple once my life settles down. (a crazy pregnancy and upcoming cross country move have forced me to step back from a lot of stuff this year). Julie,

Maybe "women-focused" would have been a better choice of words, heh - sorry.

I have seen men interact here and I think that's great also - I totally acknowledge the mixed gender (another poor choice of words) within boundaries ("..as long as they come willing to learn from women and focus on the needs and viewpoints of women.")

To come clean, I find myself feeling relegated when men recommend the latest book on women leaders or women in the bible, etc -- and even when other women do; and would love to find the words for the difference between that (relegation) and the relationship that I have with other women that is truly unique - if there is a difference.

Amie Ha! This February I finally gave into my friend/coworker's pestering and went to the Women's retreat. I gave up bitterness for lent, and women's retreats made me bitter, so I figured I should just go and face my bitterness head on! In the end it wasn't so bad, but I'm still pretty sure that women's retreats are not for me. I am not an arts and crafty scrapbooking kinda gal. I like dirt, swings, and searching for catchable wildlife (I'm a 10 yearold tomboy at heart).

To be honest I don't remember much of my retreat on a spiritual level beyond God making it clear to me that I had to make a choice in whether I was going to continue going to the particular church.

All that to say... I agree women's retreats are not for all women. This post has been removed by the author. Retreats I've gone to have been heavily emotional too! It's just too much. They aren't all bad, and can have some great teaching too, depending on the teacher, of course.

The Enlightenment era started this issue I believe. The faith/reason split put religion in the top story. Emotion, experience, faith, all got lumped up there, and things like intellect and reason stayed on the bottom, with science, "in the real world". This is an unreal system. We are whole people with real Creator and there are not really two stories.

Then in America, the Revivalist period was dominated by emotional, experiential, tent revivals that spread through the country by folks who had little theological grounding or education. Thousands made alter conversions, and this was the basis for the Evangelicalism we have today.

Tissue-based ladies retreats are only a natural consequence, I suppose. Wit, I like your phrase, "tissue-based." Nice. Wow! It's always so uplifting to come to sites like these and know you are not crazy-alone! We are just beginning to look at women's ministry at our 5-year old, growing church in the suburbs of a large city on the east coast. All of the previous comments - I could echo them in spades. Tissue-based - blech! Pink, pink, pink - spare me! Not to say that all the women who say they love these are wrong - just not for me. As we try to put our arms around what a 'new kind of women's ministry' would look like, we survey the women at the church, and they don't know - they don't even talk about tissues and pink. They just don't know what they need/want. I think the whole women's retreat venue got stuck back in the 50's when women were at home with the kids, and just wanted to get away for a weekend and just be girls (the junior high pajama party comment made me LoL!).

The year is 2008 and we need to go beyond what was has been and find what should be. The question is 'how' and what does that look like. And should it even be a new cookie-cutter approach as it has been in the past, or should it be an open pattern that allows for the diversity and difference within each community? Hate to figure out some formula and 10 years from now be in the same conversation.

This blog is a great place to read about what other like-minded searchers are trying to accomplish. Thanks for being a shining voice in the scrap-bookie world of Stepford Christian women!!

DK (Diane) The Year of Living Biblically Week 3 To answer #2: John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
An excellent blog on this verse is entitled "How Free Are You" on the www.thedailylily.com. I'm not even half-way finished with the book but am thoroughly enjoying it. Addressing the humor in this book: I loved how AJ described his attempt to obey the OT command to stone adulterers. I was a laughing out loud!

He perfectly makes the point about how impossible it is to take the Bible literally and to be able to follow all its rules. I'm looking forward tor eading about his last 3 months, when he focuses on the NT. In answer to #4 - The most freeing belief from the Bible for me is that Jesus is the "Truth, the Way and the Life"...which implies to me that my "Truth" comes through relationship with Jesus, not some intellectual process that goes by names that I rarely can keep straight. It frees me from all the theological splits and debate because I can simply choose to believe that Jesus is all I need. As Jesus suggested, a child-like belief will help more than sophisticated academic understanding. And the more I rely on Jesus and choose to try to follow his ways and his Creed, the more in harmony I will be with God.

This has been a powerful and freeing thing for me. It is way too easy to get distracted by all the arguments about systems of study and so forth...and while they are interesting and can be helpful in fleshing out the Bible, in the end, it is most helpful to me to get back to basics and just let Jesus speak to me. Not that obeying his commands is so simple a thing but I feel deeply inmy soul that loving God and others serves as the compass for all the questions about which way to go in our lives. Half the battle is just stopping to think long enough to ask the questions...which way is most loving to God, others, and self? Then one has to always be alert to the biases of pride and self-interest that influence how we might answer such questions. Nancy, as always, beautifully expressed. I love the way you tap into the sense in which it is in abiding in Jesus, rather than believing something about Jesus that is "all we need." Weekly Round-up Thanx for stopping by my blog! I've only been using blogger for the month of April (used to be on Bravenet). I've linked to your blog from mine. I really enjoy your posts! Don't be a stranger! thanks for posting the round-up! this has been a great source of new connections and inspiration! Learning to read again How do I study the Bible?
I get honest
I ask
I listen which may include digging for a little while.

Well, it starts with my heart and identifying the needs in my heart and talking to Jesus about those needs. Honestly. With gut-wrenching honesty. Sometimes, I'll talk via journaling writing out my stream-of-conciousness prayers with pen and paper. Sometimes I will walk outdoors and talk out loud to God, processing and thinking out loud, pouring my heart out to him about whatever is bothering me.

And then I listen.

Sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it takes a while, but the Spirit always speaks thoughts I wouldn't have thought of come into my heart. Sometimes it's an address for a verse chapter and verse and I look it up on crosswalk.com kinda like a scavenger hunt and read it in several translations until one of them hits me square between the eyes. Sometimes, it's a phrase or a little snippet of scripture and I'll look those up on crosswalk.com to find the whole actual verse and I'll read that. Sometimes I'll read something someone else wrote like a blog post or a bit from a book or magazine and it will trigger a verse of scripture put my heart on a new trajectory of thought. This is what happened recently and I wrote about it in my post Accepted in the Beloved. I read something someone else wrote that brought the phrase "accepted in the beloved" to mind. I searched out the verse that came from by looking at an online concordance. Then I read the chapter and after reading it a few times, I did one of my favorite things. I paraphrased it on the fly imagining I was trying to explain the chapter to my DC. How would I explain it to them in precocious yet grade school language? I'll start writing and all the sudden it's very clearly not me writing it's the Holy Spirit translating it for me like the wonderful stage prompter and counselor that she is.
Accepted in the Beloved is what resulted and I felt dearly dearly dearly relevantly loved by the Trinity in the whole experience.

This conversational relational way of interacting with Jesus through scripture feels so so good. Like having someone scratch right in the exact spot on your back that itches so bad but you can't reach it by yourself.

Sometimes I have to dig. Looking through several translations or looking up occurences of a word or phrase in scripture.

But it all starts with the need. Need it important. Me getting really humble and honest about my needs and asking Jesus to show up for me and he does.

The difference is subtle but feels different nonetheless. A need-driven Bible study feels like a scavenger hunt where someone who loves you has gone before you and laid out the clues so you know what you're searching for is there somewhere and you know they WANT you to find them because they hid the treasure for you to find. That was their intent in the first place. If you ask him for bread, will he give you a stone?

I've just been learning that feeling hungry and then asking for bread is a big help. SW -- so beautiful the way you share your adventure with the Spirit of Jesus. It is luscious!

Ellen, I have to say I have found that often discovering truth outside of the bible has given me a fresh perspective and brought me BACK to a feeling of being inspired, having scriptures come to mind, like how SW describes. It's almost like when you've written something and you have to take a break and then come back before you can actually have enough perspective to see what's worth keeping, what's in need of some work or editing, what can be cut and pasted into a different section and what is best let go of, off to to the cute little trash icon :)

So for me, as sense of open-being and space has offered me the opportunity to have that intimacy with the Spirit Who Is and who can let us come alive through scripture. Just curious........

How do you really study the bible if you dont speak or read aramaic, hebrew, and greek? As a progressional preacher I find that Bible Study is done best in the context of a few friends who will join in with you. I think that the scriptures were created with the idea that they would be read in community.

Does that mean I don't take the time to meditate on scripture? Of course I do that. That can be done by simply memorizing scriptures and then perusing over them in your quiet times, walking, resting, praying.

An interesting form of Bible study for instance is available as we read each other's blogs about certain scriptures and discuss them.

I am currently researching a way that others in our community can have input on the Sunday discussion at least a few days before Sunday.

Scripture reading is a regular part of our gathering. So the idea would be to place the scripture we will discuss on Sunday in the hands of people in the community before hand, meet together on a Tuesday, and hear from others how this scripture plays itself out in their lives -- hear from them what God may be saying to me about the words on the page and finish our conversation on Sunday after summing up what we talked about on Tuesday.

In this way, we are taking the Bible at 10 - 30 words a week and processing all week what the implications are in light of our lives, the scriptural context itself, and our community.

Again, this is more experiment than anything else, but it really is pretty exciting. We are on Matthew Chapter 6 right now. We started Matthew in September 07.

Wild huh? John: That's an excellent idea...on a number of levels I think I would find that very appealing in a faith community. Let us know how it goes! Well, I can't take credit for it, completely. Although this has been something that I have often dreamed about doing, the mechanics and structure are things I picked up in reading about it along the way.

Stuff like Rob Bell's Velvet Elvis really got me thinking about scripture reading this way.

Of course Doug Pagitt's church Solomon's Porch in Minnesota is the pioneer of what he calls progressional preaching.

What we are doing is essentially taking these ideas and making them our own through experimentation and adaptation. Its a lot of fun. I too have had a great tugging at my heart in this area over the last year or so. I had been unable to really move into it due to time constraints but I am starting to seriously take a much deeper walk into all of this.

I love evangelism and have been very active in this area over the years but this season is now one of discipleship and growing of new believers for me personally. I am being brought new and hungry believers who are wanting to go deeper as well.

I have always been more of a study type person who has had materials to facilitate my readings. However, the movement in my heart has been really learning how to read the Bible. The reason for this is that most people don't have access to materials such as these yet they learn how to dig for those jewels out of the text. This is something that should be a basic learning concept of the faith just like learning to pray. I am not sure why we don't teach these things.

Currently, I am about to begin training with the Precept to Precept Ministries with Kay Authur. The inductive study method is helping me a lot. I am amazed at the detail that is in the text that I have just not really seen before.

I see that many are journaling (excellent) and combining contemplative type prayer and meditation which was my own dominate method. It is very useful for seeking communion with God but the inductive is very helpul as well. I will probably start teaching using this as well because that actually helps me be consistant and dig even deeper from within myself. I have to admit I do love inductive bible study - I had a class that the professor admitted he recreated from a masters level class he had taken. But, with really hard stuff that doesn't seem to cross reference very well, the only thought I'd add is that I ask God what questions I need to ask - because sometimes it is mentioned in a lot of other places, but I can't see it yet because my paradigm isn't decoding the other ways it plays out. I need the paradigm shift to see it and the only way I can get outside the paradigm is to ask God to help me think outside my box. Emerging Men I propose that the way to avoid becoming a doormat is to change one's understanding of what "leadership" or "headship" means. Doctrinally, the definition of headship is all over the map.

Perhaps the reason that some married women don't do submissive so well is because domination and submission don't fall into God's vision of headship/leadership. In other words, maybe women weren't created to be doormats any more than men were created to wipe their muddy feet upon women.

Just a thought (and predictable, at that, coming from my corner). I not sure I understand what you are asking. Are you asking if encouraging men as leaders looks different than encouraging women as leaders - and so do we as women know how? Are you asking if there are set standards for how leaders should be encouraged and responded to? Are you asking if women can learn from and be led by men without him dominating her? I guess I need to know what your definition of leadership is before I can understand what you are asking... well, now that you've asked, i kind of wonder about all those things... :)

ok, a bit further explanation then...

i've always approached most of my relationships with guys (friendship or otherwise) with a bit of an old-fashioned bent. i like it when they get the door, pay for dinner, etc. - it makes me feel treasured, i guess. stereotypical, i suppose, but these are little things that they can DO that communicate their care for me, and allowing them to make decisions that DON'T honestly matter all too much to me (like where we're going for dinner, etc.) is a way i've let them lead. small things, not a big deal at the end of the day, but, there they are.

i'm also a pretty verbal person - as evidenced by the time i put in to blogging. :P so i tend to SAY "thanks", "i love you", "i really appreciate you" - things i mean to build others up. but sometimes all of that can get misinterpreted, whether i want it to or not.

so i guess this is more of a "relational dynamics" question... maybe less religiously put - how do you just be friends with a guy without him reading stuff into it? I am of the opinion that the most important thing single women and men can practice with each other is to be fully present -- to see one another -- which is to respect one another and honor all a person's facets, weaknesses, strengths, vulnerabilities, visions and all the beauty and wonder of a human being that is seen for who they are (as opposed to who they think they should be,) accepted, believed in and accompanied on the adventure, without ever claiming (or controlling) another's adventure for oneself.

I tend to feel that roles hinder authentic intimacy. I think that while functions can be delegated ad periodically evaluated in a flexible dance, roles can force a person or people to live a life that is based on who they think they should be instead of on who they are created to be. This post has been removed by the author. Happy,

I'll put in my $0.02, seeing that I'm a man who used to be a younger man! :)

In terms of how to be able to create and maintain good healthy friendships with males, especially at your [and their] stage of the game [if I recall correctly, you are an undergraduate, right? forgive me if this is incorrect], I would start with being honest with yourself. If you are involved in a friendship with a man for whom you may have some level of romantic interest, this will probably come across to him in your nonverbals. So, if you do feel conflicted - ie, you have some interest but you don't feel you are led to pursue anything besides friendship, accepting your own feelings and being completely honest, wherever that goes [even if the season of the friendship comes to pass], in the long run is probably the way to go. In the case of not having any interest whatsoever in a male friend, make sure the boundaries are clear and unambiguous, especially if sharing a meal or having a personal conversation or any one-on-one interaction that could be construed as flirting or interest. No, you don't have to micromanage every interaction with the opposite sex, but just be aware of how hopeful, hormonal young men might interpret or wish to interpret how you interact with them.

Unless you join a convent, you're not going to be able to avoid men, so just be clear about where you're at and continue your journey and your walk!

Sincerely,

Medium Guy Jemila, I couldn't have said it better. Jemila, I have always been a pretty big fan of your opinion and I am remembering (again) why. :) Thanks.

m.g. - thank you SO much for your advice. and for thinking i'm an undergrad. :) (i'm actually pretty much an eternal grad student.) i've hit my 30s (and there are moments when i think, how old ARE you, Hap, and why haven't figured all this stuff out yet?!) - but i haven't got it all figured out yet, so thanks for your $.02! :) It was *incredibly* helpful. Aww Hap, you're giving me the warm fuzzies :) I hope you can be easy on yourself and let life come alive where you are. I'm a single female and have really enjoyed reading this post! I won't throw my $0.02 in though. I'm happy to hear what others think on this! Enlighten me! Hey Happy,

I want to address your first question quoted here:

"How can godly women best encourage their brothers in Christ to be the strong leaders that God has made them and called them to be, without becoming doormats in the process?"

I think that it has to happen that way first of all. In other words, it is your encouragement that brings out the level of "leadership" that you want.

Be leary of the kind of men that want to "give" you leadership without you asking for it.

I like the idea of being fully present with each other, but keep in mind that though this is a fantastic goal, that it is really more of a process that will play itself out over the days, weeks, months, to come.

That is not to say tnat you cannot be fully present from the begining, but you can't guarantee that others will come to the relationship that way.

For most people, they usually can't help but to try to put their best foot forward in a relationship at the begining, then the "fully present" eventually comes out.

So, if you have a male friend that loves to open doors to you, but also likes to tell you "jokingly" that what your wearing looks a "slutty," when your peers are just fine with what you are wearing, be leary.

I think leadership is over-rated when it comes to relationship. Look at most elderly couples that have been married for 40, 50 years. It may not be immediately evident, but generally the reason they are still married is because they at some point achieved the fully present ideal.

They accept each other, and neither seems to be the "boss." If anything they both come off as a little bossy to each other. It's basic respect.

Wow, I didn't mean to write so much. I myself have been married for 21 years, and my wife is as much a leader in our relationship as I am. I think the best word for it is partnership.

She does the sorts of things I like, and I return the favor. :) Is it really necessary for everyone to have leadership qualities?
God has given us many different gifts.

A leader is someone who has been down a similar road before, someone who has tried some new ideas, made a few mistakes already, and knows what types of pitfalls to look out for. They make decisions about what to do next, where the group is header next, etc. In my experience, good leaders emerge out of necessity.

A good manager is someone who keeps a group organized and functioning. Some people are forced into this (parenting is a good example). A good manager is a godsend.

I think a person can be highly skilled and indispensible without being a leader or a manager. I woke up this morning still thinking about leadership. That first comment by wilsford "understanding of what "leadership" or "headship" means is right on.
Not withstanding, I would like to add to / correct my previoius comment ;)
I see that I didn't really respond to the question. How are we to encourage leadership in our prospective or current mates?
More important than experience and skills to leadership would be a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit.
So..encouraging your mate to nourish that sensitivity (scripture, prayer, meditation, worship, fellowship) would be helpful. Also, I've found that we all need to have "wiggle room" or the freedom to get the message wrong now and then. Also, I've found that we all need to have "wiggle room" or the freedom to get the message wrong now and then.

can most Christians take the risk of being wrong every now and then? Is that why the incredible emphasis on knowledge and intellect—because if you have it all figured out, then you don't have to mess with defining the borders of "grace" which is anything but intellectual? The Year of Living Biblically Week 2

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