Emerging Women

Monday, September 04, 2006

Does God Punish

While there are certainly instances in the Bible where it appears that God has punished His people, does He in fact punish or does He simply allow us to suffer the consequences of our sin? Could the answer be in the definition of the term? Is there a difference between punishment and discipline? I have, for the first time, begun exploring these thoughts and am curious to hear other opinions.

Labels: Theology

posted by Tiffanie Lloyd at 9:04 AM

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24 Comments:

At 9/04/2006 11:01:00 AM, Charlotte Wyncoop

Hmmm...I'm exploring this too. Julie set me on an interesting book called "Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn.

I train dogs as a hobby and am interested in the psychology of training kids now, since I have two. The book has some interesting conclusions that contradict what I've thought I knew. I can't say it's a great book (I'm a third through it) but it is posing interesting questions...

One of the stands Mr. Kohn takes, is that punishment does not produce consistent self motivated behavior changes. If that's true, would God use it to change our behavior? Have we then misunderstood the role of punishment in the bible stories (I'm thinking Exodus and in the desert 40 yrs). How does that interrelate with the way we view God, heaven and his kingdom?

I'll think more about your question and try to post some details from the book later...
At 9/04/2006 12:18:00 PM, Rachel

As a woman, I find it intersting that you pose the question in the "He" of God-self. I believe that God is Love, and sometimes Love hurts, Love heals, Love forgives. I believe life is a journey of lessons and parables, if we are only careful enough to listen. We punish ourselves in our choices and decisions. God gives us free will, and hopes for us to show forth God's light and give thanks and praise. When we make choices that don't give honor to the God within us (as a person, a family, a community, etc.), consequences are inevitable. Call that punishment?

Definitly and interesting question yours is Tiffanie.
At 9/04/2006 12:29:00 PM, Julie

I can't see God as vindictive. I think god loves us and wants the best for us. We live through the consequences of our actions and often blame God for them or ascribe them to God as punishments. So most of the time I see it as our own perspetive. but then there are passages like Ezekiel 16 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. " what do you do with that?
At 9/04/2006 01:14:00 PM, Janice

discipline is training - it is not punishment. This is an area I've also explored over the past several years. Too many references to the rod - shebet - being taken as punishment. Its not meant to be, its meant to guide and protect sheep. No shepherd beats his sheep. More on this later, have an impatient 5 yr old nearby.
At 9/04/2006 05:24:00 PM, Tiffanie Lloyd

Swandive-no one has ever challenged my thinking about this before. Can you please elaborate... "As a woman, I find it interesting that you pose the question in the "He" of God-self."

It is the "as a woman" part that really interests me. How should my reference to God have been different from that of a mans? How would you have referred to God in asking this question?

Discipline is training. I like that. However, was it discipline or punishment when God flooded the world?
At 9/04/2006 07:20:00 PM, Unknown

My thinking on this has changed so much recently. I can't say I can say yes or no, because I am about situations and details. I am currently reading "What Does the Bible Really Say About Hell?" by Randy Klassen. I had struggled with "eternal pushment" etc. expecially within my changing ideas. This book is Great! It is easy reading, only about 130 pages, and could be used in a study group. Even though it deals with "tradional view" of Hell, it deals with literalism, "worship of the Bible" vs. "worship of 'The Living Word' (Jesus)". It also deals with those passages, ideas of the "vengeful" God and reconciling that to Jesus. So indirectly, even this little book has made a huge impact in my views, how I read things, how I view God, and putting many things in a much different context. I highly recommend it if you struggle with ideas such as "eternal punishment" and "angry/vengeful God", or just want a good read. It doesn't give a pat answer, but really challenges many current thoughts.
At 9/04/2006 08:35:00 PM, Rachel

Sorry - I should have gone a little further in the God definition. I always find it interesting when women (everyone really, but especially women) refer to God as male in pronouns. Him, He, His. God's self is neither male nor female. I stumbled upon this blog not that long ago, and thought yea! emergent conversations with women! So awesome. I have enjoyed lurking for a while, and have even started to respond to a few posts before, but always chickened out. But I responded today for some reason, and the trigger was talking about God in the male form.
I hope that have made some sense, and look forward to lurking and commenting more. I have really enjoyed the responses to this question you posed, T. Especially from From the Margins. Blessings to you all tonight.
At 9/04/2006 09:26:00 PM, Janice

Hey all, back, and sorry. More scattered thoughts from me - as I have a lot going on right now and am reading several books that really have me thinking on other things (men/women..good stuff).

To whomever asked about the flood - I believe that God does punish, but not in a punitive manner, more in a 'just' manner as God is just. He provides a path for us and when we stray from it, and being given opportunity for repentance, there are consequences, punishments, etc. I believe they are handled differently for those who belong to Him and those who don't.

And in Christ, Him having taken on our 'punishment' or penalty for us, grace abounds. I believe there are a lot of 'natural' consequences of our actions and that when we are removed from His protection we suffer those consequences as they are not blocked by Him.

I believe God is much more about discipling and grace and consequences of our own actions than about punitive punishments. In a way, our rejection of Him is 'honored'.
At 9/04/2006 09:31:00 PM, Janice

Were the 40 years in the dessert punishment or training? Was it punishment or opportunity for growth and repentence?

As somenoe else said, perhaps a lot of how we approach the subject is persepctive.
At 9/04/2006 10:20:00 PM, Unknown

I do think that many times the "punishment" is consequence to our bad choices, actions etc. I do tend to see it more as, God may not step into change outcomes, for whatever reason. Where I struggle with this is that through Christ our sins were covered and the way I have been taught (so...may need some help here) we have been redeemed already. So at least now, after Christ, I don't necessarily think God is deciding who needs "punishment". Maybe, Old Testament stories teach us about redemption and consequences, but through Christ, God deals with us differently then those before Christ. I think opportunity arises for redemption, lessons learned, guidance, etc. but I think definately after Christ things changed.
Our pastor was speaking recently and mentioned how he was taught "fear of God" as if God stood over us, ready and waiting to whip the belt out at the first wrong move. He was constantly told "God Hates Sin" (as I also, was told frequently). He said now he really thinks that God doesn't hate sin because he waits to punish, but hates sin because of what it "does" to us, and to our lives. Like a father or mother watching the impact of a bad choice or decision made by a child, God hates the pain, hurt etc. that occurs with sin. That has stuck with me. So I look to the nature of Christ and the love that was taught, and I have a hard time reconciling the punishing God with the Loving Christ. The nature of Christ and God is to redeem and heal.
At 9/05/2006 04:50:00 PM, Anonymous

uI will share my learning about punishment vs discipline from my time as an early childhood teacher. Discipline is a method used to help teach a child to become self-disciplined in a behavior or attitude. Punishment is teaching I am the boss, you will obey me and serves to maintain control not specifically teach. In my experiences of life raising children, teaching, helping in church organizations I have found discipline much more helpful to the children, students, and adults, however there have been insances where no amount of disciplined strategies worked and I as the adult had to say, "I am your mother and you cannot have any more snacks before supper, that's the end of it. Punishment is utalized by a bigger power towards a smaller power to exert control and limit the person being punished to any immediate response except to obey. These words are easily confused.Disciples and discipleship come from the same word which means we need discipline (from God) in order to grow. Children need discipline from parents in order to grow well. We all need discipline from God to grow spiritually well. Peace and joy.
At 9/05/2006 08:53:00 PM, Janice

I can get behind the idea that we can contend with God, but not so much so that God made a 'mistake'. Just my .02
At 9/06/2006 10:35:00 AM, Tiffanie Lloyd

I can not agree with God having made a mistake. If that were so, then the God I know does not exist. It wasn't after the flood that God became all that He is. God's plan has been in motion from the beginning, it did not formulate after a mistake.

I think I agree in the possibility that, if I understand correctly, pre-Christ God could very well have punished for sin, but that now He "deals with us differently".

I also think it is all in our perspective of things. In hindsight we can usually see a lesson learned or a disaster avoided, and so what we thought to be punishment was exactly what we needed to experience in order to become more like Christ. It is unfortunate for us, that we often need to learn the hard way... which can surly seem like punishment.
At 9/06/2006 12:21:00 PM, Tiffanie Lloyd

While I think that God does regret (the sins of His people for example), I do not think that God has regrets about His actions. From The Margins-can you point me to the regrets of God that you are referring to.
At 9/07/2006 12:13:00 AM, Charlotte Wyncoop

My life and experience really resonate with the concept that God uses consequences, natural and God's, to mold and grow us.

I would not be the person I am today without the sexual abuse I suffered as a child, the tumor that nearly killed me four years ago and the turmultous last year with my husband's job situations. I would not be the person I am today without having watched and lived through my sister's unwanted pregnancy. She would not have become a Christian without having gone through that natural consequence of her actions. Her son Jacob is a living reminder of God's grace and the impossible struggles that have sent her again and again to rely on God.

For some people (like myself) it takes incredible pain to get through a thick skull. Because God allowed whatever it took to rescue my sister and I, we are with him.

Did God punish us? No, he refined us with a reallllly hot fire.

Oh, and I use "he" because in English it's the common gender neutral when talking about people and I'm not comfortable talking about God as "it." Just my personal preference.
At 9/07/2006 09:06:00 AM, Unknown

Charlotte,
I have had different views lately on this. I think that natural consequences occur in response to my actions, and sometimes we just don't know why things happen ie. sexual abuse, tumors, etc. I think that hard times and pain change us and form us, but I have a hard time believing God "allowed" those things to happen to you in order to form you into a strong believer. I whole heartedly think you were met in rough times and the love, comfort, etc. you received probably helped you. There are many people out there that get "slammed" with all kinds of hard things in life, while others don't. Some of the "others" our human nature wishes would receive hard times, and some we seem to think "Why does this happen to them?". I have seen the most Faithful believers dealt one issue after another.
At 9/07/2006 02:33:00 PM, Tiffanie Lloyd

My interpretation of Genesis 6:6-7 is not that God regretted His actions like I might regret having a spicy meal that has now lead to heart burn, but that He was sorry about mans response to His plan. Most interpretations use the word grieved, which I do not think is meant as regret. I think that God was expressing sorrow that His people choose sin, and not that He made a mistake. 1Samuel 15:29 informs us that God does not change His mind. When God created man He said it was good; the decision to create man has always been good. If God does not change His mind, then He did not, at the time of the flood, have regrets and decide that maybe the decision was bad.

Whether the sufferings we endure are consequences of our own actions or not, I believe that God uses all things for good. So, while a life threatening disease might be a result (or consequence) of our unhealthy behavior, God can, and I believe will, use the disease for good and allow us to grow through the experience in one way or another.
At 9/07/2006 07:17:00 PM, Unknown

Just a couple thoughts/questions...
If God didn't regret, and is all knowing, why not wipe it out and start over?
Why start with Adam and Eve, certainly God knew what would come?
Certainly God knew that there would be much evil again, ie Hitler, etc., why only destroy the one time?
God promised to never flood the earth again, and has never wiped out all of man kind again. Why?
Just for me (don't have much knowledge in this area) is it possible that the "great flood wasn't the "entire" earth? I mean they still thought the earth was flat right? Any comments or scripture, would love to hear.
At 9/07/2006 11:01:00 PM, Unknown

Thanks Sherri,
I mentioned before and will again, I just finished "What Does the Bible Really Say About Hell?". It is not just about Hell, but Hell concepts, Judgement passages, reconciling God of the Old Testament through Christ, and where some of our ideas evolved about God's punishment/judgement "eternal" damnation etc. It really made me think about God in a totally different light. It helped me a great deal. I wonder as some others here have hinted at, that we focus a lot on the "punishing, judging God" when Christ was not at all this way. We have a hard time not seeing a different way. Tonight it surfaced in a very real way for me. We read almost nightly with our kids. I have been very careful about what details we give in Bible stories etc. My daughter (5yrs.) out of the blue asked if God will make her blind when she is bad. I wasn't sure where she got that. Then she mentioned a "Christian" movie that she watched at my sister-in-law's. I had not watched it, but obviously she was worried after seeing it. It is an animated preschool movie with a donkey in it. It just really hit me, "no wonder many of us struggle with seeing God in a different light", for many of us, the powerful-to be feared God is the first thing we learn about. Then we continue to hear about it our whole childhood.
At 9/08/2006 06:52:00 AM, Tiffanie Lloyd

Rather than giving my interpretation of the referenced Bible passages, I want to ask a question. Do you think that rather than God changing His mind, He could be using those instances to be changing ours? Maybe it is our minds and/or hearts toward decisions that are being changed. If you believe that God is all-knowing-If God decided to do "B" instead of "A", but knew all along He would end up doing "B", did He really change His mind? Maybe He was just helping us to come to some understanding or realization.

Even if God had wiped everything out and started over, do you think men would still have chosen sin? God wants relationships with us, however not ones that are forced. I think that He wants us to choose Him.
At 9/08/2006 11:33:00 AM, Tiffanie Lloyd

Just because the outcome is known by God, why isn't the choice free? I personally believe that God is all-knowing. In addition, I don't think that God wanted to create mindless beings to control, rather He desired beings whom He can have relationships with. What if the only way for God to have "Perfect" relationships with us is by allowing us to choose to do so? What if He already knows which of us will and who will not? Why would that make it any less of a "choice"?

Thank you all for engaging in these discussions. Whether it is affirming my own theologies or opening my mind to new interpretations and my heart to unrealized truths, I really take a lot from these conversations.
At 9/08/2006 11:19:00 PM, Charlotte Wyncoop

Michele,

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, then God knows what will happen and chooses to change or not change things based on God's determination of what He will or will not interact with.

To me, I translate that as "allowing". If we believe that God does still interact with our existence, then that opens the door to God intervening or not intervening according to His will. I believe there are principles at work outside of events, like the abuser's choise to abuse and my choices regarding how I reacted to the abuse. God didn't make it happen. But if we believe the passage that says "God will never give you more than you can bear," it also suggests that God can determine how much you can bear and then intervene and provide a way out.

The other thing that influences my thinking on this, is that God's purposes are not mine. I would like the bad guys to have bad things happen and the good guys have good things happen. But, I think God's picture is bigger - I think His goal for us both individually and corporately is to become whom He created us to be. I also think He'll use whatever is at hand. Somewhere in the old testament prophets, God was described as a potter. It takes tremendous pressure from the potter's hand to form the shape that was originally intended. Why do we baulk and rail when bad things happen - aren't they redeemable/turnable to good purposes?

I think this is a partnership between us and God. God doesn't cause the bad thing to happen, but He can use it to mold us into what He intended originally. We can choose to baulk and rail and refuse to be molded, or try to flow with the pressure and become something truly beautiful.

Sorry, don't know how to be less wordy on very little sleep...
At 9/09/2006 05:15:00 PM, Unknown

Sherri,
Again, I like your descriptions. I think that makes a lot of sense. Most of us don't allow our kids to get hurt intentionally, to teach a lesson. If they get hurt, however, we may use those moments to mold future behavior. That is how I see God. He loves us, and has much more power to mold us, so why would we think otherwise.
At 9/12/2006 09:32:00 AM, Unknown

It's funny sometimes how things "pop-up". Just this week, I was reminded "again" how "the punishing God" is put out there. I received a forwarded e-mail from a cousin of mine and the title was "Don't Mock GOD". The contents were popular people like John Lennon, Marilyn Monroe, popular political figures in the world etc., who "Mocked" God, and then died. It gave "when" they "Mocked" God in relation to when they died. It even gave the "tragic" ways/reasons for death. Then at the end a little (bribe) blurb about accepting Jesus. It really saddened me. I can't believe that people put those things together.

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